Yale Daily News

old campus was definitely quite the place last night. everywhere I walked, there was something going on. i'm a freshmen, so this whole society stuff is so intriguing to me. is skull and bones really the best? or is it just for (certain) people with (certain) aspirations? are the ancient 8 really the only ones that matter?

i don't know. this is interesting stuff.

to the junior who turned down their Skull and Bones invitation, I salute you.

Kingman Brewster, is that you? I thought you were dead!

Seriously, take your stick-it-to-the-man, anti-system guilt elsewhere.

Are there really around 36 societies these days? That means close to half the senior class would be in one. Those who are left out must feel pretty bad.

this article provides no new information. It is just filler

If the YDN is correct about the numbers, this is getting a little ridiculous, and it's considerably worse than it was just a decade or so ago when I graduated.

By 'worse' I mean 'more of the senior class spending their time on this elitist junk.' I get that some people like their senior societies. But my feeling has always been, if you want exclusivity, status anxiety, and clubs that are hard to join, just go to Princeton! There's an entire school organized around this kind of social arragement. Part of what makes Yale great is that this kind of stuff is on the margin of the Yale social scene (chefly b/c it's only seniors).

My advice to #1 (frosh). Do not give a whit of thought to what senior society "matters". Craft your own interesting life at Yale, made up of people and subject matter which interest, stretch and create the new you. Chances are that if you focus on your own growth as a student and a person, some group will notice you and invite you to join for your senior year. Even if that doesn't happen you will have a full experience and won't have missed a thing. I went into one my senior year, enjoyed it and have kept in touch with many friends I met there then and later. But I would have had a fulfilling senior year without it, too, just different.

#4, you have no idea.

Recent Alum isn't in a society!

Hate to break it to you, but if didn't want exclusivity, you should have gone to State U. Yale is to other colleges as societies are to the greater social scene. You chose one of the most selective, elite schools in the country. You have absolutely no right to criticize societies in this regard.

This debate happens every year, and at the end of the day, membership and ownership and fraternity are valid values. Exclusion happens in all facets of life. Regrettable. On the flip side, however, cultivating a group of talented people and forming those bonds is important. At least at Yale people get tapped for holding positions, contributing to the community, etc. Far more of a meritocracy than Princeton's Eating Clubs.

In other words, your argument is that the people in these societies don't deserve to be there. I can't imagine you would argue against accomplished people reaping the benefits of success. Again, that is what all of us are doing here at Yale.

There is an overall argument to be had against elitism and selectivity, but to do so you must also argue against Yale, the higher education system in general, capitalism, etc... which, since you went here, I doubt you do.

most societies are pretty stupid. When you can be in the same society as four of your closest friends, you know the entire process has gone downhill

Actually, some of us went to Elite Private Institutions so that we can rise among their ranks and then, once at the top, dismantle the system of privilege and elitism that exists systemically.

One step ahead of you!

secret societies are meritocratic? hahaha. yeah, i'm sure they look at juniors' GPAs, test scores, recommendations, etc. as well. they're just social clubs. get over yourself.

Word. I understand why people want to join societies, even beyond exclusivity - ready-made group of friends with whom to have meaningful conversations? Sweet! But I think if you look hard you can find diverse groups of thoughtful people on campus well before your senior year that, you know, are open to everyone. And it might mean you have to venture away from the YPU or some other status-obsessed group where people learn to talk instead of listening - but hey, what a learning experience that would be!

(And for the record, I am not a junior bitter about being left out. I am a sophomore who looks up to my older friends who have turned down senior societies, including Skull and Bones.)

... and, hence, justifying the acceptance of society offers nonetheless.

Yo, I'm with #12. #10, going to Yale does not mean you unequivocally espouse elitist and capitalist values. As someone who was once on welfare and still made it to these hallowed halls, I can say that not everyone is from Manhasset. Secret societies are not meritocratic...you still have to get tapped. If you want to participate in them fine, but its not exactly scoring one for change

Actually, a number of societies (including bones) get recs from professors during the tap process.

best societies are skull and bones, scroll and key, book and snake, wolf's head, manuscript, elihu, berzelius, mace & chain, and st. elmo's, no doubt.

For the person mentioning the YPU - Seriously, we get like 2 taps, and none of them that big.

All I will say is the following: Frats and people at Toads tend to get into many a secret society.

This isn't meriocratic, and quite frankly, isn't trying to be.

@14: you know what's funny? the ypu doesn't have a direct tap (some parties do), and ypu members over the last few years have an unusually bad track record on getting tapped in general. so for supposedly being "status-obsessed," i have a hard time understanding why someone would join the ypu unless they wanted to both talk and listen. as it is, it's a pretty even mix of tools and decent people, but both of them get tarred with the same brush, both by the societies and by pro-"meritocracy" folks like yourself.

@#17: you mean to tell me that professors talk about a student's grades and performance in class when other students make inquiries? because that sounds pretty unethical to me. or do you mean that interviewees or pre-taps are asked to submit references? (which is obviously less objectionable, although quite toolish)

in any case, it doesn't make sense for societies to pick geniuses and community leaders if they're d-bags whom you wouldn't want to spend every thursday with. the social considerations would have to always come first.

Okay, I'm sorry for making fun of the YPU. It wasn't nice, and I wouldn't say it to anyone's face in real life, so I shouldn't hurt people's feeling on the YDN comment board. I guess the reason I painted y'all with the same brush is because you're fond of doing things like going to Union League and, before it closed, Mory's - both of which are/were built around elitism and exclusion in a really big way, even if you just like having fun and toasting. I think that something similar could actually be said about the entire debate structure you follow; it's so formal and there are so many rules, so it's not particularly welcoming to someone not inculcated in your culture, and it's all about winning, besting someone else. I'll give you that listening has to occur in any argument, but it's still an argument, and so structurally speaking much less about respecting other people as they are and much more about tearing other people down in order to prop yourself up. In a debate, you listen to the dude on the other side primarily to weed out his weaknesses. Now, if you're listening to two other people debate, and I know that's what a lot of people spend time doing in the YPU, it's obviously a whole different ballgame. All this aside, however, just because I think the YPU is silly doesn't mean y'all don't have a good time, and probably a lot of people would think the stuff I spend my time doing is also silly, so ... I retract what I said. It was unkind.

This is #12.

What... you think I'm talking only about Societies?!

Colleges, baby. Elite, Private, Exclusive.

I mean, as far as most of the unlanded societies go, sure, it's a lot of team/frat/friend mixing. Not a meritocracy. And frankly, I'd rather not be in one at all than the half-assed societies.

That said, as far as the landed groups go... most of the taplines include positions on campus held by very successful people. Say what you will about the supposed Toads crowd, but the womens crew tap in Bones is well deserved. We're talking future olympians. Same goes for the head of the YDN, or Roosevelt. We can debate what "merit" is, but most of the taps in "Big 3" are successful people... and that's the point.

And @16- Who says all change is good?

Who are the 2009 taps for Skull & Bones? Who was the intrepid junior that passed?

ROOSEVELT is a tap line now?

What a joke.

What's next, MAYA?

sickkk laxxxxxxxx I don't know how Manhasset got brought up on this thread, but I kind of love it.

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You said:"...but it's still an argument, and so structurally speaking much less about respecting other people as they are and much more about tearing other people down in order to prop yourself up. In a debate, you listen to the dude on the other side primarily to weed out his weaknesses."

Clearly you don't understand the purpose of debate. Its purpose it not to tear people down, as you claim, its purpose is to strengthen people's arguments by pointing out the flaws in their thinking/logic.

Just as your professors are not trying to tear you down when they grade and correct your written work, the debater is trying to build up her opponent by showing them that their oral presentation could be better if fixed the holes in the arguments proffered.

It might not feel good to be corrected, but those who willing put themselves in place to be critiqued come out of that process stronger and more capable to do what an educated person is suppose to be able to do.

We spent the first two meetings talking about protocol and whether it would be appropriate to swear in conversations. At that point I left, never to return.

roosevelt tap is the biggest joke of all time. everyone knows if you are remotely invovled in campus life and aren't a tool, you will get a tap and that being in a so-called "landed" society says very little about your experience in comparison to any other society. society is about the people and learning and growing senior year.

That's actually debatable (ooh! a meta moment!). Learning by being corrected is certainly one way of learning, but there are other ways too. We can also learn a lot by making positive connections and building on each other's points, or sharing our perceptions in a non-judgmental fashion. Which is not to say that this is always useful, but I do think think that it's a little narrow to say that adversarial learning is the only useful style of learning, even for improving upon skills such as logic and oral argument that educated people are supposed to have. (A really interesting popularly accessible book relating to this topic is "The art of changing the brain" by James Zull)

You said:"I do think think that it's a little narrow to say that adversarial learning is the only useful style of learning..."

Now who ELSE said that. Because I certainly didn't, neither did I imply it. Go Re-read what I actually DID say/write (#22).

I heard you just listen to a bunch of people talk about themselves for 8 hours each week, even in the big ones. This sounds hardly interesting at all...

Why can't we just have clubs that present essays? We already talk too much about ourselves here.

I'm dumbstruck when a Yalie comments that the societies are elitist. That Yalie should had matriculated at Columbia or Harvard, I suggest, after what I bet was four or three years at a public high school. If one enjoys what's common, don't seek admission to Yale College.